locked Reminder - Launch at Pioneer Trail Field


We would like to remind you of this upcoming event.

Launch at Pioneer Trail Field

Date: Sunday, December 10, 2000
Time: 9:00AM - 3:00PM EST (GMT-05:00)

West Pioneer Trail
Mantua Township, Portage County, Ohio
Setup at 9:00 a.m.
Range opens at 10:00 a.m.

locked Re: I'm a moron...

Barry Lynch <belynch@...>

Thought you were coming to our TriCity Meeting here at the plant on the 10th

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2000 10:53 PM
Subject: Re: [MTMA] I'm a moron...

i will be there

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Mantua Township Missile Agency NAR#606

locked Re: I'm a moron...


Sorry I can't come Sunday, but I'll be at the party on the 16 ( I think).

                                          Harry Weiss      By the way I got
my 4-29-SS finished and it'll be ready at the next launch (after 10th)

locked Sunday's Launch

Tod Hilty

Hi all...

It looks like we'll go ahead, and try and fly on Sunday.

The weather report for the weekend has improved slightly, with it now
indicating that we shouldn't have rain on Sunday. My biggest concern, at
this point, is the fact that temperatures will be moving above freezing,
starting today, all through the weekend. We've currently got about 5" of
snow on the ground, and if enough of that melts, the field conditions at
Pioneer Trail will be horrid. I'm going to go ahead, and get a NOTAM filed
for Sunday, and I'll check the field condition on Saturday afternoon. If it
looks too muddy at that point, I'll scrub the launch Saturday night.
Please, please, please check your email Saturday night, and Sunday morning
before leaving, as I will post a "go, no-go" message regardless of the
status of the field.

If the durn ground would've just stayed frozen, we'd be in fine shape!

Also, it appears that we will have a shortage of GSE. Trigger will not be
making an appearance at this launch. I'll tear my launcher apart again this
weekend, and try to figure out what its problem is. If I get it working,
I'll bring it, but I make no guarantees! <g> At this point, we need all
types of GSE for Sunday (model, mid, and high power).

I'll keep y'all posted with any additional details...


locked Sunday Launch/Christmas Party

Tod Hilty

Hi all.. quick update..

Just recieved email from Mike Leffler, and Mark Recktenwald, and Trigger
*will* be making an appearance tomorrow. This should cover our model/mid
power GSE requirements. If Stan comes out, our HPR GSE should be covered too.

I will post again, late this afternoon, regarding the final status of the
launch. At this point, it doesn't look like we'll be in for any major
thawing today, so things should be fine tomorrow morning. Range will be
open from 10:30AM to 3:30PM, with LMR rules in effect. HPR will be allowed
pending activation of the waiver via Stan.

In other news...


Don't forget, the MTMA holiday party will take place next Saturday, at my
house, from 7PM to 11PM (or whenever we get done yakking). I'll be posting
a couple of links to the group WRT directions to my house. If y'all are
familiar with the Pioneer Road field, I'm only about 3 miles further to the
east. Getting to the field is 9/10 of the battle.

Several requests...

LAUNCH VIDEOS! We need to watch a few! Anyone who has (for whatever
reason) chronicled the MTMA, bring the tapes... Should be good for plenty of
laughs! I know Stan has a bunch of LDRS videos, so if you come over Stan
(which I hope you will), be sure to throw those in the car!

If anyone would like to bring additional food they are more than welcome to.
Cheese/Crackers, chips, pretzels, etc. will be fine, as we will have plenty
of food to begin with. The Hilty household is usually a little light on
diet pop, and *real* booze, so if there are scotch drinkers out there,
you'll have to bring your own (I *do* have half a fifth of gin, and tequilla
available as a reserve... Also, I think there may be some Rumpleminz, and
Jagermeister hiding around here somewhere too.. :).

We'll also have a "box 'o wine" for those of you who would like to partake
of the grape...

I'll have good ol' standard Genesee, and Genesee Light, and a couple, or ten
sixpacks of _good_ German Bock's, Marzens, and Pilsners for those of us who
are after the calories... Plus, I think our resident Braumeister, Mr.
Recktenwald, may stick a few of his own in the batch too! Also, we'll have
plenty of normal caffene laced pop to really get the young'uns torqued..

I'll be barbequeing chicken wings (sorta hottish buffalo wings), and we'll
have boiled shrimp, cookies, and candy out the wazoo, and other standard
holiday fare...

Hope to see y'all tomorrow, and at the party. Remember to check your email
tonight regarding the final status of tomorrow's launch!



locked Sunday's Launch GO!

Tod Hilty

We're GO for Sunday all..

Checked the field out at about 4:30 this evening, and everything seems to be
frozen nicely. Please access the field by the same oil well road, and you
should encounter no trouble. The rangehead should be set up back by the
spiffy traffic cone covering the old gas well. People with 2wd may have
some trouble with the snow, as the Tracker (being extremely light) spun a
bit to get back on the road, but there's no mud. I'll bring a chain, and we
should have a few bodies around to help with the pushing in case anyone ends
up "disabled"...

Range will be open from 10:30 to 3:30, and I should be out there about 10AM.
Forecast is slightly warmer than today, cloudy, with rain in the afternoon,
so please dress accordingly. There's still about 3-4 inches of snow on the
field, so waterproof boots will probably be nice. Also, during recovery,
watch your step, as many of the furrows in the field are nicely covered over
by snow.

Graciously, Mike Leffler will be delivering Trigger, and I'll be bringing a
nice and warm, freshly charged battery, so our model, and mid-power GSE
worries are over. HPR will be dependant on Stan, and (hopefully) Randy.
NOTAM has been filed, so we will be flying under LMR rules, unless Stan
notifies us of an activated HPR waiver.

If any of you who are after deer can get there just after sunrise, you
should be able to bag one, as there are bazillions of tracks from the deer
grazing the corn on the ground... <bg>

Anyway, hope to see you all there!


locked ZündungGeschichte!! MTMA #15 Feuer! Rauch! Der Nervenkitzel Von Sieg! Die Qual Von Niederlage!

Tod Hilty

From: blankreg@... (Hilty Information Systems)
Newsgroups: rec.models.rockets
Subject: [MTMA] ZündungGeschichte!! MTMA #15! Feuer! Rauch! Der
Nervenkitzel Von Sieg! Die Qual Von Niederlage!
Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 22:51:51 GMT
Organization: APK Net
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Message-ID: <3a3559a3.4469516@...>
X-Trace: 976575088 3995 (11 Dec 2000 22:51:28 GMT)
X-Complaints-To: abuse@...
NNTP-Posting-Date: 11 Dec 2000 22:51:28 GMT
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Xref: rec.models.rockets:293302

Bauteile der Township-Flugagentur Mantua bauten wieder an unserem
Pionierhinterfliegenfeld für anders zusammen...

Oh, sorry, got so excited, I started channelling Werner von Braun...


(the funny thing was how babelfish spit out Pioneer Trail! :)

The hard rocking rocket scientists of the Mantua Township Missile
Agency again assembled at our Pioneer Trail flying field for another
_spectacular_ launch!

Date: December 10, 2000
Location: Mantua Township, Portage County, NE Ohio
Conditions: Kinda crummy. Generally overcast with a 2500 foot
ceiling. 3-4 inches of snow, ~5 MPH wind
from the East, South, and Southwest.
Temps in the middle 30's.

In attendance were Mike Leffler, Larry Graceffo, David Waner, Craig
Lent, Joe Angelucci, Karen Patr(mumble, mumble, I can't read your last
name Karen!), yours truely, and... finally... <gasp> Stan MIkush!
NoHope's (Tripoli #3) Mike Fraley stopped by to watch.

Mark Recktenwald was up watching the Brownies again (did they win?),
and we're still missing Randy Miller, Chuck Straka, Tracy Laux, and
Bruce Levison. Bruce, darn it, I *know* yer out there! <g>

33 flights! From a low end of A, to a high end of I! We'll report by

Highlight of the day was Dave Waners L1! Congratulations Dave!

Mike Leffler graciously dropped off Trigger[tm] at the launch site,
and thus was the first to arrive, *and* the first to get something up.
Mike's Estes Fat Boy went up on a C6-5 for a nice wind check. His PML
Small Endevour was up next on a G75-J medium delay. Mike's final
flight of the day (he skipped out to head over to the Tri-City
Skybusters meeting) was an incredibly "low, and slow" flight, his Fat
Boy again, on an _A8-3_. Too funny! Rocket was up, about 50 feet,
tailslide, and ejection. I think he could've landed it back on the

Stan Mikush's day started with a LOC Graduator on an F40-4 for a
perfect, albeit, quite "low powered" (for Stan) flight. Stan's our
diehard high power guy, and I don't believe I've ever seen him fly
anything less than a G! Stan's next flight was a LOC Stovi(?) on an
unreported, but definitely substantial, motor. Stan had been eyeing
his well flown LOC Magnum pretty much all day, but the Magnum went
back into the car unflown after his LOC Expeditor flight. The
Expeditor was prepped with an I195, countdown issued, and launch!
Even tho' the rod was angled to the southwest, the rocket took off
towards the southeast. Up, up, up, apogee, noseover, down, down,
down... No ejection, and the Expeditor core sampled in the field
across the road. Hopefully, Stan was at least able to dig out the
motor casing!

Larry Graceffo's first launch was an Estes AMRAAM on a C6-5 for a
perfectly nominal flight! His scratch "Sky Hog" left the pad with
authority on an E30-4 next. His Estes V-2 was off next on a D12-5 for
a heavily weathercocking flight to the west. Larry built a large
upscale AMRAAM, totally scratch (just by scaling up his smaller Estes
AMRAAM), and launched it next on a G38-4 for an arrow straight,
_beautiful_ flight! The obligatory MTMA Estes Sidewinder drag race
was conducted, with me, and Larry as the contestants. Larry, finally
understanding that in order to be a fully assimilated member of the
MTMA, built a beautiful Estes Sidewinder, and prepped the bird with a
C5-3 (or, so he sez.. :). Mine was prepped the same way, and I
utilized a single 18" Custom mylar 'chute for recovery. Countdown was
issued, and both models left the pad. I WAS IN THE LEAD!!! Sorry,
first time that's ever happened. I *really* thought I had this one,
but Larry's "Sidey" came up to full thrust, and _blew_ right past
mine. <sigh> I'm like Charlie Brown, and his kite when it comes to
these dragraces! <vbg> Larry put up a scratch "Delta" on an F50-6, and
his massive "Green Mamba" took off beautifully on twin G38-4's!

Dave Waner got moving with a LOC Aura on a G40. Beautiful launch, but
the sucker was _up there_, and was consequently sacrificed to the
Rocket Gods. Either that, or it's *still* up there! Dave's next
flight was his LOC IV L1 certification flight on an H128. Beautiful,
quick, *strong* boost, perfect ejection, and a "heavily wooded"
recovery. Dave's final flight of the day was his LOC Onyx on a G40
for another _way_ high flight... I think this one's in LEO too! <g>

Joe Angelucci came down from Cleveland to join us, and started things
off with a scratch build on a B6-2, with his scratch "Intrepid" left
the pad on a B6-2. Joe's humongo scratch "Flash" (imagine a 4.5 foot
Big Bertha) left next on a D12-3 for a major weathercocking flight to
the south. The 'chute stripped, and the rocket is now about 3"
shorter. That's the nice thing about those long ones... just trim
away the damaged section, and keep flying until you end up with a
stump! <bg>

Craig Lent put up quite a few that never returned to earth. His first
flight was a LOC Lil' Nuke, which I think was recovered. Next his
Estes Silver Comet was up on a D12-3, followed by his LOC Starburst
(donated by Barry Lynch :) on 2xD12-3's. Craig's Aura disappeared
(literally) on a G35. Craig finished the day up with his Estes AMRAAM
flying on a C6-7.

Karen (whateserface.. sorry ;)'s first, and only flight of the day was
a beautifully finished LOC Aura on a G35. Rocket left the pad in a
_major_ hurry, was said to deploy, but was lost by the spotters.

While out in the woods, on a rocket prospecting trip, Craig
unexpectedly found his Aura at the _far_ eastern end of the field,
perfectly unscathed. So that makes it 3 for the rocket gods!

I promised myself that I'd fly more BP at this launch, but I found my
hands constantly gravitating towards my 24/40, and 29/40-120 motor
boxes. <g> I started the day off with my Estes Python using D12-5 for
power. Perfect flight, and recovery. My trusty Estes Yellow Jacket
got some major air on a C6-5, using mylar streamer recovery. I gave
in to my AP addiction (do they make a "patch"?), and built a nice
little E11-5J for my 24/40, and into the Python it went. First
copperhead spit, but the second got 'er going on a trail of jet black
smoke. Bit of an arcing flight to the south, long coast over apogee,
and ejection. Upon retrieving the rocket, I noticed the NC was
missing, and somehow the upper "payload" section got bashed a bit,
apparently after contacting the fins. Dunno how it managed to
accomplish that. I wrote off the NC, as I figured finding a mostly
white NC in a snow covered field would be futile at best. Dave Waner
found it later, not too far from the pads! Cool! As mentioned above,
Larry, and I had the obligatory MTMA Sidewinder dragrace, and I
launched my trusty Estes Phoenix on an E28-4T. The rocket whistles
like a "bomb" on the way up when it flies on this reload. Very cool!
Built a petite D13-7W in the 18/20 case, and loaded up the Sidewinder.
Way cool, very high, "coning" flight to the west, and perfect recovery
(in the fresh patch of cow manure our landowner had just deposited on
the field ;). After being hounded by Stan ("Why don't you stick and H
in there Tod!?"), I built a G64-7W for my AT Strongarm. My son Ryan
had the pleasure of counting down, and hitting the button. Ignition,
and off she went! Big noise! Big flame! _Way_ up there (just
kissing the cloud deck). Perfect ejection, and the Strongarm drifted
to the edge of the northern woods. The rocket hung up about 15 feet
off the ground in a hedge tree, but was extracted without damage after
a few minutes.

Execellent bunch o' flights guys!

So ends the 2000 flying year for the Mantua Township Missile Agency!
Excellent season, with many memorable flights, many new faces, and
many new members!

But, don't dismay...

The 2001 season starts next month! Yes, I'm sure our intrepid band of
fliers (idiots?) will be dragging our butts out next month, in order
to tempt frostbite, endure wetness, cold, and snow, in order to fly

I can't wait!

Hope to see everyone at our first annual MTMA Holiday
Party/Hoedown/Blowout/Farce, this Saturday at 7!

Oh yeah, any RMR'ers out there who find yerselves in NE Ohio on
Saturday night, please stop by the palatial "Hilty Compound" and have
a cup of Holiday Cheer!

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to the MTMA, and *to* RMR from the

Tod Hilty
Mantua, Ohio

Tod A. Hilty NAR #72099
Hilty Information Systems

Member MTMA, NAR Section #606

Mantua Township Missile Agency

"I'm going to put the wheels of the bus back on... just in case"
- BlankReg, Max Headroom: 20 Minutes Into the Future

"I speak for myself _and_ my corporation! Deal with it!"
- blankreg

- remove nospam.ever, and replace with apk for reply

locked Re: Map link for Saturday's party.


In a message dated 12/12/00 1:32:04 PM Pacific Standard Time,
blankreg@... writes:

Map looks good.


Harry Weiss   :)

locked King Viper 3


Hey Harry Weiss here, Im thinkin' about getting a King Viper 3 for
Christmas(9ft tall,5"dia.) she runs on 3 motors(I'll be proably using
3 g-64-7W,or 3 H-somethings for my lvl. 1 certif.) Can I use this
thing at a normal launch or is it too big.I was online looking at
launch rods and found the x-treme rail 1 6-ft section but it uses
different lugs check it out at it is under new

locked Map link for Saturday's party.

Tod Hilty

This is from

Let me know how it looks from y'all's perspective, as since my browser has
it cached, it continues to show the same copy.

Anyway, you'll note the intersection of Pioneer Trail, and Mantua Center.
This intersection is the third to the east, along Pioneer Trail, from
Carlton's field.

High Street in Mantua is Mennonite Road to the west. Main street is SR 44
to the north, and the south. Reservoir is the only road entering High
street on the north side, and it's at the very top of the hill.

If it's still confusing, just go to, pick maps, and punch
in 10767 Reservoir Dr., Mantua, OH 44255, and keep zooming out until you
figure out where you're at! ;)


locked Re: King Viper 3


Regarding the King Viper 3, Level-I Certification, and Extreme Rail launch

(1) The King Viper 3 is an excellent vehicle but I seem to recall that
rockets using clustered engines can't be used in certification attempts.

(2) The King Viper 3 requires all three engines loaded to fly correctly.
If you use 3 Aerotech G64-(?)W engines you would exceed the total impulse
of 320 N-s allowed under LMR (Large Model Rocket) rules.

(3) Finally some good news. The "Extreme Rail" as advertised by Giant Leap
Rocketry is perfectly compatible with Blacksky rail guides. I flew my
Estes' "MaxiAlpha-3" off of an extreme rail twice last fall at the Erie
club's launch using standard acetyl rail guides from Blacksky. It was the
first time that I'd used a rail and it made an instant convert out of me.

OBTW I'm hoping to certify Level-I this year myself. After looking over
all of the available kits and researching the percentage of certifications
of as many of them as I could I've chosen the BSD "Horizon" for my attempt.
It comes with a 38mm motor mount and a 29mm adapter and is light enough to
be flown on a G64 or G80 motor. For certifications it's rugged enough to be
flown with a H128 for Level-I or a J350 for Level-II attempts making it a
double threat. Check it out at

Ken Holloway

locked Re: King Viper 3

Barry Lynch <belynch@...>

Man the King Viper 3 is Too big! Level 1 has to be a single motor attempt I
think - I would not fly this rocket on less than 3 H180's - I would suggest
you look at something else. I could make you an EZ-I 65 with a 38mm motor
mount that you could go with an H123 - nice flyer!

As for rail- check out page 851 I think. I will be donating
one to MTMA this month. It works on BS rail guides or Giantleap rail
buttons. I got a 10 footer there for 32 bucks- food for thought.
Stay away from the King till you have a good grasp of lighting multiple
reloadable motors. I even have a difficult time doing that!

Good luck -- call if you wish to discuss....

----- Original Message -----
From: <saw7490@...>
To: <MTMA@...>
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2000 2:38 PM
Subject: [MTMA] King Viper 3

Hey Harry Weiss here, Im thinkin' about getting a King Viper 3 for
Christmas(9ft tall,5"dia.) she runs on 3 motors(I'll be proably using
3 g-64-7W,or 3 H-somethings for my lvl. 1 certif.) Can I use this
thing at a normal launch or is it too big.I was online looking at
launch rods and found the x-treme rail 1 6-ft section but it uses
different lugs check it out at it is under new

The main page for the MTMA group on eGroups is located at:
<a href="">

The message archive for the MTMA group is located at:
<a href="">

If you wish to have your name removed from the MTMA group, send an e-mail

locked Re: Map link for Saturday's party.

Mark Recktenwald <m_reckt@...>

There's more than one way to loft a cat . . .

Hilty Information Systems wrote:
A much more stable link (the reason why can be discussed in a separate
forum for the geeks who want to know) is the following:

If your reader/browser clips or wraps the above link, you'll have to
cut and paste everything together from

The label "E" on their map stands for "End Point" and can be used in
their "Route Planner" to plan a route from your home to Tod's. To do
this, click on their link to "Plan a Route" on the left side of the
page. On the next page, click the "Enter Address" button under "Start
of Route". Enter your address, City, and State; then click "SET START
ADDRESS". On the resulting page, click the "Plan Route" button. You'll
then be presented with a full map from start to finish and turn-by-turn


locked Re: King Viper 3


Barry's right about that, I don't think you realize how big this rocket
is. 3 H180's is the bare minimum you can get by on and even with the 6
second delays it's a scary flight. I have one if you want to see it.
Let me know and I will bring it to one of the launches. Also it is not
for the beginner, you do have to have a very good understanding of
clustering and should have prior experience with smaller rockets.
Flying it on any H combination would require ignition of all 3 motors
simultaneously to provide a stable flight. If only one motor lights it
may not leave the pad, if two motors light you now have a 12 pound
projectile you don't know which way it's going to go. Also I would not
recommend flying this rocket without an altimeter, too many variables
with 3 motor clusters( one lights late/early) you can have early/late/no
deployment which can cause serious damage to the rockets recovery
system. Rockets of this size and power range should only be flown with

locked Reminder - Holiday Party at Tod's


We would like to remind you of this upcoming event.

Holiday Party at Tod's

Date: Saturday, December 16, 2000
Time: 7:00PM - 11:00PM EST (GMT-05:00)

For more information, see message 57 at:

This will take the place of November's bimonthly section
meeting. There are two items on the agenda:
1. 2001 Flight Calendar
2. Fun

locked Re: Reminder - Holiday Party at Tod's

Bruce Levison <bsleviso@...>


I will try to make it in for the party! My wife has to work so I will
only have my two children (Ian and Ben) with me. I hope the weather is
good so the drive will be nice. Where do we park since this sounds like
it will be a rather large party?


locked T-MINUS 20:30, AND HOLDING...

Tod Hilty

We are at T- 20:30:00 and holding...

The planned hold a T- 20:30:00 has commenced in order to load ETOH stores,
pre-warm the hydrazine systems, and to begin LOX tanking.. Xmas party crew
has begun review of mission targets, and objectives...

Everybody clear on the map!? Very large house, two tone, blue and grey,
picket fence in the front, and a dead '85 Camaro to the north side.. BTW,
it's yours if you can haul it out! The Camaro that is... <g>

Use my driveway as the first approach. I've secured my neighbor's driveway,
and we have clearance from the village to park on the treelawn as necessary...

We will have a "Parking Superintendant" in place in order to direct
potential traffic...



locked Re: T-MINUS 20:30, AND HOLDING...



Regrettably I will have to abort my planned mission to the Hilty's.

I was hoping to do a flyby with my brother, who is visiting from Dallas, but
late soccer games ('till 8pm) and a vehicle shortage (the Cutlass went down
last night) have forced me to scrub the mission (including a planned mission
to Mars Models today).

I was really looking forward to this gathering since it's been a while - last
year in the early days of MTMA ;) - since we had time to socialize and share
a couple cold ones.

My apologies to Jenny.

Merry Christmas to all!


locked party

WanerDonald <WanerDonald@...>

just wanted to say craig , karen ,and I , had a good time at the party. it was very nice.  should have another one in the summer , maybe a MTMA cookout ? I liked the wings.(and the wheat beer). there are a lot of nice people in the MTMA group . I forgot to ask how many members are there ?
                                         thank you
                                              david waner

locked Re: Estes Saturn V


I have also done business with this person and was very satisfied with the
price and service.  Seems to me that Great Lakes Hobbies is selling these
kits for $39.99 and no shipping (just a drive to Kirtland).  Stan and Barry
have done a bit of business with GLH in the past and I would like to take a
trip up north to check out some reloads.


Subj: [MTMA] Estes Saturn V
Date: 12/28/00 9:17:16 PM Eastern Standard Time
From:    mleffler@... (MLeffler)
Reply-to: MTMA@...
To:    MTMA@...

Just an FYI.  I picked up the 30th anniversary edition Estes Saturn V kit
from Ebay.  The seller is known as Rocketman and seems to be a husband and
wife team in Minnesota.  You can bid, or on any of the rocketman auctions
without a staring bid, you can purchase the kit outright for $48.99 + 5.00
shipping.  From the entering of my bid to delivery on my doorstep was 5
days including Christmas.

Happy Holidays to all,

Mike Leffler