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Mark Recktenwald
My rocket was actually a Soyuz. I'll be uploading some pics and videos from our launch to the club's Facebook page. If anyone has pics or videos of the Scouts launching, please post them--I was too busy assisting them at the pad to document any of it.
-- Mark
On Monday, September 16, 2019, 11:16:06 AM EDT, Wolfram v.Kiparski <astronwolf@...> wrote:
We had five entries for MTMA Kitbash Contest. They were Bill Berger, Gary Stricker, Mark Recktenwald, John Eck, and Eric Hudnell. Each rocket was built using only the contents of an Estes Sprint XL kit. Then the rocket had to make a safe flight. It was a real pleasure for me to examine the imaginative creations that these guys came up with. Good job guys! From left to right: 4th place B. Berger and his not quite finished U.S.S. Andromeda Goonybird 1st place G. Stricker and his Ronast 2nd place M. Recktenwald and his Vostok 3rd place J. Eck and his colorful Sprint Caterpillar 5th place E. Hudnell and his PIA Browns rocket 
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We had five entries for MTMA Kitbash Contest. They were Bill Berger, Gary Stricker, Mark Recktenwald, John Eck, and Eric Hudnell. Each rocket was built using only the contents of an Estes Sprint XL kit. Then the rocket had to make a safe flight. It was a real pleasure for me to examine the imaginative creations that these guys came up with. Good job guys! From left to right: 4th place B. Berger and his not quite finished U.S.S. Andromeda Goonybird 1st place G. Stricker and his Ronast 2nd place M. Recktenwald and his Vostok 3rd place J. Eck and his colorful Sprint Caterpillar 5th place E. Hudnell and his PIA Browns rocket 
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Jeff Kodysz
One more thing... tomorrow is also the day of the kitbash contest. Bring your kitbashed Sprint XL kit for flying and judging. When the scouts are done, the judging begins!
Jeff
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Jeff Kodysz
Sorry for the late reminder, but tomorrow morning we will be hosting Cub Scout Pack 3269 for their rocket day. They will be first up in the morning so if there are any members who can get to the field and assist, help would be greatly appreciated. We were lucky enough to have some of our regular members pitch in and help for the last scout launch.
Unfortunately I will not have my two sons with me this weekend as they have these things called social lives (when did that happen???).
See you at the field!
Jeff
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During October our regular launches will also be sanctioned by the National Association of Rocketry as NRC Launches. "NRC" means, National Rocketry Competition. It's kind of like an ongoing National model rocketry postal contest that's been going on for the past couple years, and MTMA is just now supporting this event for its first time. The MTMA NRC launch is to be run concurrently with our scheduled model rocket launch and has no separate schedule. The NRC model rocket flights are pretty much just like any other model rocket flight, except that NRC flights are timed with a stop watch, or have an altimeter onboard that must be read by a contest official. This launch is an officially sanctioned event of the National Association of Rocketry. Anyone may participate, but only NAR members will have their flight performance entered on the National Score Board. The events are: 1/2 Parachute Duration 1/2A Streamer Duration 1/2A Helicopter Duration 1/2A Boost Glider Duration 1/2A Altitude B Payload Altitude The event rules are found in the U.S. Model Rocket Sporting Code. Altimeter UseageFliers must either check to see if MTMA supports downloading data from your altimeter, or bring the equipment necessary to do so. PayloadsFliers must supply their own NAR Standard Payloads, but they must be inspected and approved by the Contest Director prior to launch. Respond to this discussion thread if you have any questions. -Wolf (MTMA NRC Contest Director)
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Updated Event: MTMA Model Rocket Launch - Saturday, 14 September 2019
#cal-invite
main@MTMA.groups.io Calendar <main@...>
MTMA Model Rocket Launch
When:
Saturday, 14 September 2019
10:00am to 6:00pm
(UTC-04:00) America/New York
Where:
http://maps.google.com/?q=Harmon%20Flying%20Field%2c%20619%20Bartlett%20Rd%2c%20Aurora%2c%20OH%2044202
Organizer: MTMA
Description:
This is a regular model rocket launch to be conducted in accordance with the NAR Model Rocket Safety Code ( http://www.nar.org/safety-information/model-rocket-safety-code/ ) and MTMA launch procedures. G-impulse max. No high power. The public is invited to attend.
In the event of poor flying conditions, the following Sunday will be the backup flying date. Stay tuned for last minute updates.
We typically set up 15-30 minutes before the launch. Please arrive on time. We fly until 6:00 pm, or until everyone has had enough and goes home. If you arrive late, you may find that we have already flown and packed up.
Please park in the main parking lot. Do not drive out into the field.
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Re: Handbook of Model Rocketry
This sounds like rocketry’s counterpart to what “First Steps In Winemaking” is to the amateur winemaker. It’s regarded as the the bible and the starter and is a good and educational read for novices and experienced alike. It was first printed in the 70s, or maybe even the 60s, and is in the 8th or 10th edition now. If this rocketry handbook is indeed that good, I need one, because the mishaps the winemaking one saved me from making saved me a lot of $$$ and grief...
And we all know I’ve had my mishaps in rocketry...🤣
On Sep 10, 2019, at 4:19 PM, Wolfram v.Kiparski < astronwolf@...> wrote: HEADS UP!
Because of some very generous donors, MTMA is now offering the Handbook of Model Rocketry for only $5.00.
There are very limited quantities available, and I'm limiting sales to one copy per person. You have to be at our launch and fly a rocket. First come, first served...
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Re: Handbook of Model Rocketry
HEADS UP!
Because of some very generous donors, MTMA is now offering the Handbook of Model Rocketry for only $5.00.
There are very limited quantities available, and I'm limiting sales to one copy per person. You have to be at our launch and fly a rocket. First come, first served...
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Re: Handbook of Model Rocketry
This is a pretty cool read as well. Covers basic rocketry fundamentals all the way to advance stuff including building a custom launch controller. Below the picture is a link to order off Amazon
-----Original Message-----
From: Wolfram v.Kiparski <astronwolf@...>
To: main <main@MTMA.groups.io>
Sent: Tue, Sep 10, 2019 2:23 pm
Subject: [MTMA] Handbook of Model Rocketry
I plan on offering brand-new paperback copies of G. Harry Stine's, Handbook of Model Rocketry, 7th edition, for sale at all upcoming launches. Price is at my cost - $13.87. I am not making any profit from selling these.
I recommend this book to anyone who is new to the hobby. You've come out to our launches and flew a few times. Or maybe you've just watched. Now you're hooked, and you're looking for more knowledge. You can read the forums and Facebook, but no where will you get it all in one spot like in the Handbook. Many of us got their start by reading the Handbook of Model Rocketry. I had a 3rd edition of the book almost on permanent loan from the library before I ever flew my first model rocket in 1973. The information in this book will help you build better, fly better, and expand your horizons beyond wherever you are at in the hobby.
Experienced fliers would also benefit from reading this book. I still refer to it. Any experienced flier who wants to become more consistent in their flying (fewer mishaps) would benefit from the knowledge in this book. I can't recommend this book enough. Buy a copy and read it.
-Wolf
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Re: Handbook of Model Rocketry
Jeff Kodysz
Thanks Wolf! In my opinion, EVERYONE who views rocketry as a hobby at any level and in any kind of serious manner should read this book.
Jeff
On Tue, Sep 10, 2019 at 2:44 PM Jim Seibyl via Groups.Io <jseibyl= mac.com@groups.io> wrote: Take my money, I need a copy! See you at the next launch.
Gheem “We need more boom.” On Sep 10, 2019, at 2:23 PM, Wolfram v.Kiparski < astronwolf@...> wrote: I plan on offering brand-new paperback copies of G. Harry Stine's, Handbook of Model Rocketry, 7th edition, for sale at all upcoming launches. Price is at my cost - $13.87. I am not making any profit from selling these.
I recommend this book to anyone who is new to the hobby. You've come out to our launches and flew a few times. Or maybe you've just watched. Now you're hooked, and you're looking for more knowledge. You can read the forums and Facebook, but no where will you get it all in one spot like in the Handbook. Many of us got their start by reading the Handbook of Model Rocketry. I had a 3rd edition of the book almost on permanent loan from the library before I ever flew my first model rocket in 1973. The information in this book will help you build better, fly better, and expand your horizons beyond wherever you are at in the hobby.
Experienced fliers would also benefit from reading this book. I still refer to it. Any experienced flier who wants to become more consistent in their flying (fewer mishaps) would benefit from the knowledge in this book. I can't recommend this book enough. Buy a copy and read it.
-Wolf
-- Jeff KodyszPresidentMantua Township Missile Agency NAR Section #606
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Re: Handbook of Model Rocketry
Take my money, I need a copy! See you at the next launch.
Gheem “We need more boom.”
On Sep 10, 2019, at 2:23 PM, Wolfram v.Kiparski < astronwolf@...> wrote: I plan on offering brand-new paperback copies of G. Harry Stine's, Handbook of Model Rocketry, 7th edition, for sale at all upcoming launches. Price is at my cost - $13.87. I am not making any profit from selling these.
I recommend this book to anyone who is new to the hobby. You've come out to our launches and flew a few times. Or maybe you've just watched. Now you're hooked, and you're looking for more knowledge. You can read the forums and Facebook, but no where will you get it all in one spot like in the Handbook. Many of us got their start by reading the Handbook of Model Rocketry. I had a 3rd edition of the book almost on permanent loan from the library before I ever flew my first model rocket in 1973. The information in this book will help you build better, fly better, and expand your horizons beyond wherever you are at in the hobby.
Experienced fliers would also benefit from reading this book. I still refer to it. Any experienced flier who wants to become more consistent in their flying (fewer mishaps) would benefit from the knowledge in this book. I can't recommend this book enough. Buy a copy and read it.
-Wolf
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Handbook of Model Rocketry
I plan on offering brand-new paperback copies of G. Harry Stine's, Handbook of Model Rocketry, 7th edition, for sale at all upcoming launches. Price is at my cost - $13.87. I am not making any profit from selling these.
I recommend this book to anyone who is new to the hobby. You've come out to our launches and flew a few times. Or maybe you've just watched. Now you're hooked, and you're looking for more knowledge. You can read the forums and Facebook, but no where will you get it all in one spot like in the Handbook. Many of us got their start by reading the Handbook of Model Rocketry. I had a 3rd edition of the book almost on permanent loan from the library before I ever flew my first model rocket in 1973. The information in this book will help you build better, fly better, and expand your horizons beyond wherever you are at in the hobby.
Experienced fliers would also benefit from reading this book. I still refer to it. Any experienced flier who wants to become more consistent in their flying (fewer mishaps) would benefit from the knowledge in this book. I can't recommend this book enough. Buy a copy and read it.
-Wolf
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The 300-lb braided kevlar line that I installed in my Estes Fat Boy (the original BT-80 version) has held up well since 2002 or so. It's pretty thin stuff so it's not like I'm coiling up a rope inside the rocket during prep.
The lower lb-test lines tend to be stiffer and tend to resist getting packed up during prep. The heavier weight kevlar has a softer drape, and is easier to prep.
On Mon, Sep 9, 2019, 3:47 PM Tom Augustyn via Groups.Io <taugy= aol.com@groups.io> wrote:
No rush. Don't know when I'll be making it back up again any ways.
-----Original Message----- From: John Ulizzi < jaulizzi@...> To: main < main@mtma.groups.io> Sent: Mon, Sep 9, 2019 3:03 pm Subject: Re: [MTMA] Kevlar shock cord
I can do what Mike suggests next launch I am at. Dunno if that will be this sat or not...
An in person “how I do it” session would be best!
Mike Nowak
On Sep 9, 2019, at 2:27 PM, Tom Augustyn via Groups.Io < taugy@...> wrote:
Any chance of adding diagrams/pictures?
-----Original Message----- From: John Ulizzi < jaulizzi@...> To: main < main@mtma.groups.io> Sent: Mon, Sep 9, 2019 1:46 pm Subject: Re: [MTMA] Kevlar shock cord
Great ideas !
Bob, you beat me to the punch in shock, and also degradation. Having thought about it since my original post, while I have yet to have a failure of the 100# with small rockets, some of which have been flown MANY times, I have had zippers, and I did intentionally ( although I had forgot) upgrade the bottom portion to the 250. It is easier to work with as well. The 100 is thin enough that if you are not careful you will cut yourself with it when you tighten the knot..
A few things I have learned:
1) I do something similar to Jeff’s mod of wrapping the kevlar around the engine hook, or in the case of screw on retainers, around the entire motor tube. I do this for strength more than anything else but Jeff I like your version that makes it replaceable. Mine has always been permanent.
2) Re: zippering, shock absorption, etc: Instead of a small piece of rc fuel tubing right at the end of the airframe, run a longer length of it with sufficient kevlar inside of it to allow it to stretch, making in in effect a snubber. This will prevent zippering and breakage due to shock. We sometimes use this exact item behind a dipsy diver when trolling for walleye for the same reason : to add some give in the system. Modern fishing line doesnt stretch like lines of yore, and if you build everything strong enough not to break, and there is no give, the fish “breaks”, and gets away. Counterproductive. Same thing when you blow the nose cone clean off and the swivel or the plastic retainer on the nose cone comes apart. As you can tell I am also a big fan of stealing technology from one hobby and applying it to another. If I remember I will steal one of these snubbers from my tackle box and throw it in my range box for the next launch I am able to come to...
3) I am a big fan of snap swivels because they reduce twist and also let you change things out in a hurry. But be careful in your selection. I learned very quickly that the swivels I stole from my freshwater tackle were not strong enough, even the high quality ones, not even for model rockets. I’m not yet playing with rockets big enough to justify raiding my saltwater tackle, but what you want are good, durable coastlock style swivels, in strength to match the kevlar. I have not found the extra expense of ball bearings to be worthwile. But strength and quality
yes. I have seen swivels I have used to land 20 lb plus fish blown apart by a D engine.
4) One other little trick... If you use a long length of kevlar in lieu of a shock cord, wrapping the kevlar in a figure 8 and then taping it together right at the intersection with one or two wraps of masking tape acts a very good shock dissipater as well...
Just my two, or, I guess my four cents worth...
Cheers,
John
Sounds like a modification of the "lariat loop" which works well.
On Mon, Sep 9, 2019 at 12:25 PM Jeff Kodysz < jeffk813@...> wrote:
I’ve tried a method of making the Kevlar shock cord replaceable on model rockets. The method works well but is a little difficult to explain in an email. Basically, You poke a through-hole in each of the centering rings large enough to pass a carpet needle through. Then take your Kevlar and tie a small loop in one end, put the loop around the motor hook and using the needle, pass the free end from the rear up through the holes and into the body tube.
You have to make the Kevlar long enough to reach from the very aftmost portion of the rocket all the way to its final desired length, but if it gets toasted and weak, you can easily pull it out and replace it.
Jeff
On Sep 9, 2019, at 12:16 PM, Tom Augustyn via Groups.Io < taugy@...> wrote:
Great info, thanks!
-----Original Message----- From: Bob Ferrante < robert.1.ferrante@...> To: main < main@mtma.groups.io> Sent: Mon, Sep 9, 2019 11:43 am Subject: Re: [MTMA] Kevlar shock cord
One thing that must be considered with Kevlar is degradation. 100 pound line may work the first three flights but if the shock cord is close to the ejection charge then each time it is being exposed to the ejection charge it does degrade. After a few flights your 100 pound line is now 75 pound line, and a few more 50 pound line or less. Also Kevlar will breakdown in UV light (sunlight). The strength is significantly reduced over time exposure to sunlight. I passed on a bunch of Kevlar at NARAM this year because it had changed color on the reel from the UV breaking down the Kevlar. Several layers in had changed color because the vendor kept the reels on the back of his trailer and where constantly exposed to sunlight.
Funny thing is I purchased 150 pound and 500 pound from Emmakites right after NARAM. I have had the web address in my favorites since NARAM-53. www.emmakites.com
Experience has told many of us that it is better to overbuild the shock cord.
100 pound is good for small competition models and sport models up to B or C.
250 pound is good for models up to E or F or egglofters.
Because Kevlar is so strong you may find it breaks parts on the model. So a short section of elastic line run in parallel with the Kevlar to absorb some shock before the Kevlar line pulls tight with reduce the shock to the parts of the rocket. This is great for egglofters and TARC teams to know.
Bob Ferrante
On Mon, Sep 9, 2019 at 11:14 AM Jeff Kodysz < jeffk813@...> wrote:
Yes, but Kevlar is excessively strong for its diameter. 100 pound test Kevlar is like carpet thread.
On Sep 9, 2019, at 11:10 AM, Tom Augustyn via Groups.Io < taugy@...> wrote:
Okay but what about the actual size of the kevlar cord? Wouldn't heavier pound ratings have more braids and be thicker?
-----Original Message----- From: Jeff Kodysz < jeffk813@...> To: main < main@mtma.groups.io> Sent: Mon, Sep 9, 2019 9:06 am Subject: Re: [MTMA] Kevlar shock cord
Think about it this way... if it's rated to #100, you could attach a 99 pound weight to the body tube and pick the rocket up by the nosecone with the weight attached. The rocket itself would fail long before the kevlar would break.
The only thing to worry about is zippering, but if you make the cord long enough that's not a problem. You could also secure as small piece of silicone model aircraft fuel tubing to the cord where it touches the open end of the body tube.
Jeff
On Mon, Sep 9, 2019 at 9:02 AM Tom Augustyn via Groups.Io <taugy= aol.com@groups.io> wrote:
For all body tube sizes?
-----Original Message----- From: John Ulizzi < jaulizzi@...> To: main < main@mtma.groups.io> Sent: Mon, Sep 9, 2019 8:49 am Subject: Re: [MTMA] Kevlar shock cord
Just my two cents but I have used the 100# on model rockets and never had a failure of the kevlar. I have had the swivels pulled apart, which to me is an even greater testament to the strength of the 100#...
They are both very good...
John
On Sep 8, 2019, at 10:20 PM, Tom Augustyn via Groups.Io < taugy@...> wrote:
Thanks Wolf! I was actually looking for a source for this exact product!
--
Jeff Kodysz
President
Mantua Township Missile Agency
NAR Section #606
--
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No rush. Don't know when I'll be making it back up again any ways.
-----Original Message-----
From: John Ulizzi <jaulizzi@...>
To: main <main@mtma.groups.io>
Sent: Mon, Sep 9, 2019 3:03 pm
Subject: Re: [MTMA] Kevlar shock cord
I can do what Mike suggests next launch I am at. Dunno if that will be this sat or not...
An in person “how I do it” session would be best!
Mike Nowak
On Sep 9, 2019, at 2:27 PM, Tom Augustyn via Groups.Io < taugy@...> wrote:
Any chance of adding diagrams/pictures?
-----Original Message-----
From: John Ulizzi < jaulizzi@...>
To: main < main@mtma.groups.io>
Sent: Mon, Sep 9, 2019 1:46 pm
Subject: Re: [MTMA] Kevlar shock cord
Great ideas !
Bob, you beat me to the punch in shock, and also degradation. Having thought about it since my original post, while I have yet to have a failure of the 100# with small rockets, some of which have been flown MANY times, I have had zippers, and I did intentionally ( although I had forgot) upgrade the bottom portion to the 250. It is easier to work with as well. The 100 is thin enough that if you are not careful you will cut yourself with it when you tighten the knot..
A few things I have learned:
1) I do something similar to Jeff’s mod of wrapping the kevlar around the engine hook, or in the case of screw on retainers, around the entire motor tube. I do this for strength more than anything else but Jeff I like your version that makes it replaceable. Mine has always been permanent.
2) Re: zippering, shock absorption, etc: Instead of a small piece of rc fuel tubing right at the end of the airframe, run a longer length of it with sufficient kevlar inside of it to allow it to stretch, making in in effect a snubber. This will prevent zippering and breakage due to shock. We sometimes use this exact item behind a dipsy diver when trolling for walleye for the same reason : to add some give in the system. Modern fishing line doesnt stretch like lines of yore, and if you build everything strong enough not to break, and there is no give, the fish “breaks”, and gets away. Counterproductive. Same thing when you blow the nose cone clean off and the swivel or the plastic retainer on the nose cone comes apart. As you can tell I am also a big fan of stealing technology from one hobby and applying it to another. If I remember I will steal one of these snubbers from my tackle box and throw it in my range box for the next launch I am able to come to...
3) I am a big fan of snap swivels because they reduce twist and also let you change things out in a hurry. But be careful in your selection. I learned very quickly that the swivels I stole from my freshwater tackle were not strong enough, even the high quality ones, not even for model rockets. I’m not yet playing with rockets big enough to justify raiding my saltwater tackle, but what you want are good, durable coastlock style swivels, in strength to match the kevlar. I have not found the extra expense of ball bearings to be worthwile. But strength and quality
yes. I have seen swivels I have used to land 20 lb plus fish blown apart by a D engine.
4) One other little trick... If you use a long length of kevlar in lieu of a shock cord, wrapping the kevlar in a figure 8 and then taping it together right at the intersection with one or two wraps of masking tape acts a very good shock dissipater as well...
Just my two, or, I guess my four cents worth...
Cheers,
John
Sounds like a modification of the "lariat loop" which works well.
On Mon, Sep 9, 2019 at 12:25 PM Jeff Kodysz < jeffk813@...> wrote:
I’ve tried a method of making the Kevlar shock cord replaceable on model rockets. The method works well but is a little difficult to explain in an email. Basically, You poke a through-hole in each of the centering rings large enough to pass a carpet needle through. Then take your Kevlar and tie a small loop in one end, put the loop around the motor hook and using the needle, pass the free end from the rear up through the holes and into the body tube.
You have to make the Kevlar long enough to reach from the very aftmost portion of the rocket all the way to its final desired length, but if it gets toasted and weak, you can easily pull it out and replace it.
Jeff
On Sep 9, 2019, at 12:16 PM, Tom Augustyn via Groups.Io < taugy@...> wrote:
Great info, thanks!
-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Ferrante < robert.1.ferrante@...>
To: main < main@mtma.groups.io>
Sent: Mon, Sep 9, 2019 11:43 am
Subject: Re: [MTMA] Kevlar shock cord
One thing that must be considered with Kevlar is degradation. 100 pound line may work the first three flights but if the shock cord is close to the ejection charge then each time it is being exposed to the ejection charge it does degrade. After a few flights your 100 pound line is now 75 pound line, and a few more 50 pound line or less. Also Kevlar will breakdown in UV light (sunlight). The strength is significantly reduced over time exposure to sunlight. I passed on a bunch of Kevlar at NARAM this year because it had changed color on the reel from the UV breaking down the Kevlar. Several layers in had changed color because the vendor kept the reels on the back of his trailer and where constantly exposed to sunlight.
Funny thing is I purchased 150 pound and 500 pound from Emmakites right after NARAM. I have had the web address in my favorites since NARAM-53. www.emmakites.com
Experience has told many of us that it is better to overbuild the shock cord.
100 pound is good for small competition models and sport models up to B or C.
250 pound is good for models up to E or F or egglofters.
Because Kevlar is so strong you may find it breaks parts on the model. So a short section of elastic line run in parallel with the Kevlar to absorb some shock before the Kevlar line pulls tight with reduce the shock to the parts of the rocket. This is great for egglofters and TARC teams to know.
Bob Ferrante
On Mon, Sep 9, 2019 at 11:14 AM Jeff Kodysz < jeffk813@...> wrote:
Yes, but Kevlar is excessively strong for its diameter. 100 pound test Kevlar is like carpet thread.
On Sep 9, 2019, at 11:10 AM, Tom Augustyn via Groups.Io < taugy@...> wrote:
Okay but what about the actual size of the kevlar cord? Wouldn't heavier pound ratings have more braids and be thicker?
-----Original Message-----
From: Jeff Kodysz < jeffk813@...>
To: main < main@mtma.groups.io>
Sent: Mon, Sep 9, 2019 9:06 am
Subject: Re: [MTMA] Kevlar shock cord
Think about it this way... if it's rated to #100, you could attach a 99 pound weight to the body tube and pick the rocket up by the nosecone with the weight attached. The rocket itself would fail long before the kevlar would break.
The only thing to worry about is zippering, but if you make the cord long enough that's not a problem. You could also secure as small piece of silicone model aircraft fuel tubing to the cord where it touches the open end of the body tube.
Jeff
On Mon, Sep 9, 2019 at 9:02 AM Tom Augustyn via Groups.Io <taugy= aol.com@groups.io> wrote:
For all body tube sizes?
-----Original Message-----
From: John Ulizzi < jaulizzi@...>
To: main < main@mtma.groups.io>
Sent: Mon, Sep 9, 2019 8:49 am
Subject: Re: [MTMA] Kevlar shock cord
Just my two cents but I have used the 100# on model rockets and never had a failure of the kevlar. I have had the swivels pulled apart, which to me is an even greater testament to the strength of the 100#...
They are both very good...
John
On Sep 8, 2019, at 10:20 PM, Tom Augustyn via Groups.Io < taugy@...> wrote:
Thanks Wolf! I was actually looking for a source for this exact product!
--
Jeff Kodysz
President
Mantua Township Missile Agency
NAR Section #606
--
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|
Yeah, I gotta get back up to an Aurora launch. My first time was 2 years ago 2 launch dates in a row and haven't had a chance again since.
Any word on that prospective launch site in Alliance?
-----Original Message-----
From: Mike Nowak <MikeMNowak@...>
To: main <main@mtma.groups.io>
Sent: Mon, Sep 9, 2019 3:00 pm
Subject: Re: [MTMA] Kevlar shock cord
An in person “how I do it” session would be best!
Mike Nowak
On Sep 9, 2019, at 2:27 PM, Tom Augustyn via Groups.Io < taugy@...> wrote:
Any chance of adding diagrams/pictures?
-----Original Message-----
From: John Ulizzi < jaulizzi@...>
To: main < main@mtma.groups.io>
Sent: Mon, Sep 9, 2019 1:46 pm
Subject: Re: [MTMA] Kevlar shock cord
Great ideas !
Bob, you beat me to the punch in shock, and also degradation. Having thought about it since my original post, while I have yet to have a failure of the 100# with small rockets, some of which have been flown MANY times, I have had zippers, and I did intentionally ( although I had forgot) upgrade the bottom portion to the 250. It is easier to work with as well. The 100 is thin enough that if you are not careful you will cut yourself with it when you tighten the knot..
A few things I have learned:
1) I do something similar to Jeff’s mod of wrapping the kevlar around the engine hook, or in the case of screw on retainers, around the entire motor tube. I do this for strength more than anything else but Jeff I like your version that makes it replaceable. Mine has always been permanent.
2) Re: zippering, shock absorption, etc: Instead of a small piece of rc fuel tubing right at the end of the airframe, run a longer length of it with sufficient kevlar inside of it to allow it to stretch, making in in effect a snubber. This will prevent zippering and breakage due to shock. We sometimes use this exact item behind a dipsy diver when trolling for walleye for the same reason : to add some give in the system. Modern fishing line doesnt stretch like lines of yore, and if you build everything strong enough not to break, and there is no give, the fish “breaks”, and gets away. Counterproductive. Same thing when you blow the nose cone clean off and the swivel or the plastic retainer on the nose cone comes apart. As you can tell I am also a big fan of stealing technology from one hobby and applying it to another. If I remember I will steal one of these snubbers from my tackle box and throw it in my range box for the next launch I am able to come to...
3) I am a big fan of snap swivels because they reduce twist and also let you change things out in a hurry. But be careful in your selection. I learned very quickly that the swivels I stole from my freshwater tackle were not strong enough, even the high quality ones, not even for model rockets. I’m not yet playing with rockets big enough to justify raiding my saltwater tackle, but what you want are good, durable coastlock style swivels, in strength to match the kevlar. I have not found the extra expense of ball bearings to be worthwile. But strength and quality
yes. I have seen swivels I have used to land 20 lb plus fish blown apart by a D engine.
4) One other little trick... If you use a long length of kevlar in lieu of a shock cord, wrapping the kevlar in a figure 8 and then taping it together right at the intersection with one or two wraps of masking tape acts a very good shock dissipater as well...
Just my two, or, I guess my four cents worth...
Cheers,
John
Sounds like a modification of the "lariat loop" which works well.
On Mon, Sep 9, 2019 at 12:25 PM Jeff Kodysz < jeffk813@...> wrote:
I’ve tried a method of making the Kevlar shock cord replaceable on model rockets. The method works well but is a little difficult to explain in an email. Basically, You poke a through-hole in each of the centering rings large enough to pass a carpet needle through. Then take your Kevlar and tie a small loop in one end, put the loop around the motor hook and using the needle, pass the free end from the rear up through the holes and into the body tube.
You have to make the Kevlar long enough to reach from the very aftmost portion of the rocket all the way to its final desired length, but if it gets toasted and weak, you can easily pull it out and replace it.
Jeff
On Sep 9, 2019, at 12:16 PM, Tom Augustyn via Groups.Io < taugy@...> wrote:
Great info, thanks!
-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Ferrante < robert.1.ferrante@...>
To: main < main@mtma.groups.io>
Sent: Mon, Sep 9, 2019 11:43 am
Subject: Re: [MTMA] Kevlar shock cord
One thing that must be considered with Kevlar is degradation. 100 pound line may work the first three flights but if the shock cord is close to the ejection charge then each time it is being exposed to the ejection charge it does degrade. After a few flights your 100 pound line is now 75 pound line, and a few more 50 pound line or less. Also Kevlar will breakdown in UV light (sunlight). The strength is significantly reduced over time exposure to sunlight. I passed on a bunch of Kevlar at NARAM this year because it had changed color on the reel from the UV breaking down the Kevlar. Several layers in had changed color because the vendor kept the reels on the back of his trailer and where constantly exposed to sunlight.
Funny thing is I purchased 150 pound and 500 pound from Emmakites right after NARAM. I have had the web address in my favorites since NARAM-53. www.emmakites.com
Experience has told many of us that it is better to overbuild the shock cord.
100 pound is good for small competition models and sport models up to B or C.
250 pound is good for models up to E or F or egglofters.
Because Kevlar is so strong you may find it breaks parts on the model. So a short section of elastic line run in parallel with the Kevlar to absorb some shock before the Kevlar line pulls tight with reduce the shock to the parts of the rocket. This is great for egglofters and TARC teams to know.
Bob Ferrante
On Mon, Sep 9, 2019 at 11:14 AM Jeff Kodysz < jeffk813@...> wrote:
Yes, but Kevlar is excessively strong for its diameter. 100 pound test Kevlar is like carpet thread.
On Sep 9, 2019, at 11:10 AM, Tom Augustyn via Groups.Io < taugy@...> wrote:
Okay but what about the actual size of the kevlar cord? Wouldn't heavier pound ratings have more braids and be thicker?
-----Original Message-----
From: Jeff Kodysz < jeffk813@...>
To: main < main@mtma.groups.io>
Sent: Mon, Sep 9, 2019 9:06 am
Subject: Re: [MTMA] Kevlar shock cord
Think about it this way... if it's rated to #100, you could attach a 99 pound weight to the body tube and pick the rocket up by the nosecone with the weight attached. The rocket itself would fail long before the kevlar would break.
The only thing to worry about is zippering, but if you make the cord long enough that's not a problem. You could also secure as small piece of silicone model aircraft fuel tubing to the cord where it touches the open end of the body tube.
Jeff
On Mon, Sep 9, 2019 at 9:02 AM Tom Augustyn via Groups.Io <taugy= aol.com@groups.io> wrote:
For all body tube sizes?
-----Original Message-----
From: John Ulizzi < jaulizzi@...>
To: main < main@mtma.groups.io>
Sent: Mon, Sep 9, 2019 8:49 am
Subject: Re: [MTMA] Kevlar shock cord
Just my two cents but I have used the 100# on model rockets and never had a failure of the kevlar. I have had the swivels pulled apart, which to me is an even greater testament to the strength of the 100#...
They are both very good...
John
On Sep 8, 2019, at 10:20 PM, Tom Augustyn via Groups.Io < taugy@...> wrote:
Thanks Wolf! I was actually looking for a source for this exact product!
--
Jeff Kodysz
President
Mantua Township Missile Agency
NAR Section #606
--
|
|
|
I can do what Mike suggests next launch I am at. Dunno if that will be this sat or not...
On Sep 9, 2019, at 3:00 PM, Mike Nowak < MikeMNowak@...> wrote: An in person “how I do it” session would be best! Mike Nowak On Sep 9, 2019, at 2:27 PM, Tom Augustyn via Groups.Io < taugy@...> wrote:
Any chance of adding diagrams/pictures?
-----Original Message-----
From: John Ulizzi < jaulizzi@...>
To: main < main@mtma.groups.io>
Sent: Mon, Sep 9, 2019 1:46 pm
Subject: Re: [MTMA] Kevlar shock cord
Great ideas !
Bob, you beat me to the punch in shock, and also degradation. Having thought about it since my original post, while I have yet to have a failure of the 100# with small rockets, some of which have been flown MANY times, I have had zippers, and I did intentionally ( although I had forgot) upgrade the bottom portion to the 250. It is easier to work with as well. The 100 is thin enough that if you are not careful you will cut yourself with it when you tighten the knot..
A few things I have learned:
1) I do something similar to Jeff’s mod of wrapping the kevlar around the engine hook, or in the case of screw on retainers, around the entire motor tube. I do this for strength more than anything else but Jeff I like your version that makes it replaceable. Mine has always been permanent.
2) Re: zippering, shock absorption, etc: Instead of a small piece of rc fuel tubing right at the end of the airframe, run a longer length of it with sufficient kevlar inside of it to allow it to stretch, making in in effect a snubber. This will prevent zippering and breakage due to shock. We sometimes use this exact item behind a dipsy diver when trolling for walleye for the same reason : to add some give in the system. Modern fishing line doesnt stretch like lines of yore, and if you build everything strong enough not to break, and there is no give, the fish “breaks”, and gets away. Counterproductive. Same thing when you blow the nose cone clean off and the swivel or the plastic retainer on the nose cone comes apart. As you can tell I am also a big fan of stealing technology from one hobby and applying it to another. If I remember I will steal one of these snubbers from my tackle box and throw it in my range box for the next launch I am able to come to...
3) I am a big fan of snap swivels because they reduce twist and also let you change things out in a hurry. But be careful in your selection. I learned very quickly that the swivels I stole from my freshwater tackle were not strong enough, even the high quality ones, not even for model rockets. I’m not yet playing with rockets big enough to justify raiding my saltwater tackle, but what you want are good, durable coastlock style swivels, in strength to match the kevlar. I have not found the extra expense of ball bearings to be worthwile. But strength and quality
yes. I have seen swivels I have used to land 20 lb plus fish blown apart by a D engine.
4) One other little trick... If you use a long length of kevlar in lieu of a shock cord, wrapping the kevlar in a figure 8 and then taping it together right at the intersection with one or two wraps of masking tape acts a very good shock dissipater as well...
Just my two, or, I guess my four cents worth...
Cheers,
John
Sounds like a modification of the "lariat loop" which works well.
On Mon, Sep 9, 2019 at 12:25 PM Jeff Kodysz < jeffk813@...> wrote:
I’ve tried a method of making the Kevlar shock cord replaceable on model rockets. The method works well but is a little difficult to explain in an email. Basically, You poke a through-hole in each of the centering rings large enough to pass a carpet needle through. Then take your Kevlar and tie a small loop in one end, put the loop around the motor hook and using the needle, pass the free end from the rear up through the holes and into the body tube.
You have to make the Kevlar long enough to reach from the very aftmost portion of the rocket all the way to its final desired length, but if it gets toasted and weak, you can easily pull it out and replace it.
Jeff
On Sep 9, 2019, at 12:16 PM, Tom Augustyn via Groups.Io < taugy@...> wrote:
Great info, thanks!
-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Ferrante < robert.1.ferrante@...>
To: main < main@mtma.groups.io>
Sent: Mon, Sep 9, 2019 11:43 am
Subject: Re: [MTMA] Kevlar shock cord
One thing that must be considered with Kevlar is degradation. 100 pound line may work the first three flights but if the shock cord is close to the ejection charge then each time it is being exposed to the ejection charge it does degrade. After a few flights your 100 pound line is now 75 pound line, and a few more 50 pound line or less. Also Kevlar will breakdown in UV light (sunlight). The strength is significantly reduced over time exposure to sunlight. I passed on a bunch of Kevlar at NARAM this year because it had changed color on the reel from the UV breaking down the Kevlar. Several layers in had changed color because the vendor kept the reels on the back of his trailer and where constantly exposed to sunlight.
Funny thing is I purchased 150 pound and 500 pound from Emmakites right after NARAM. I have had the web address in my favorites since NARAM-53. www.emmakites.com
Experience has told many of us that it is better to overbuild the shock cord.
100 pound is good for small competition models and sport models up to B or C.
250 pound is good for models up to E or F or egglofters.
Because Kevlar is so strong you may find it breaks parts on the model. So a short section of elastic line run in parallel with the Kevlar to absorb some shock before the Kevlar line pulls tight with reduce the shock to the parts of the rocket. This is great for egglofters and TARC teams to know.
Bob Ferrante
On Mon, Sep 9, 2019 at 11:14 AM Jeff Kodysz < jeffk813@...> wrote:
Yes, but Kevlar is excessively strong for its diameter. 100 pound test Kevlar is like carpet thread.
On Sep 9, 2019, at 11:10 AM, Tom Augustyn via Groups.Io < taugy@...> wrote:
Okay but what about the actual size of the kevlar cord? Wouldn't heavier pound ratings have more braids and be thicker?
-----Original Message-----
From: Jeff Kodysz < jeffk813@...>
To: main < main@mtma.groups.io>
Sent: Mon, Sep 9, 2019 9:06 am
Subject: Re: [MTMA] Kevlar shock cord
Think about it this way... if it's rated to #100, you could attach a 99 pound weight to the body tube and pick the rocket up by the nosecone with the weight attached. The rocket itself would fail long before the kevlar would break.
The only thing to worry about is zippering, but if you make the cord long enough that's not a problem. You could also secure as small piece of silicone model aircraft fuel tubing to the cord where it touches the open end of the body tube.
Jeff
On Mon, Sep 9, 2019 at 9:02 AM Tom Augustyn via Groups.Io <taugy= aol.com@groups.io> wrote:
For all body tube sizes?
-----Original Message-----
From: John Ulizzi < jaulizzi@...>
To: main < main@mtma.groups.io>
Sent: Mon, Sep 9, 2019 8:49 am
Subject: Re: [MTMA] Kevlar shock cord
Just my two cents but I have used the 100# on model rockets and never had a failure of the kevlar. I have had the swivels pulled apart, which to me is an even greater testament to the strength of the 100#...
They are both very good...
John
On Sep 8, 2019, at 10:20 PM, Tom Augustyn via Groups.Io < taugy@...> wrote:
Thanks Wolf! I was actually looking for a source for this exact product!
--
Jeff Kodysz
President
Mantua Township Missile Agency
NAR Section #606
--
|
|
|
I dont have that capability. Computer retard here.
I can take pics of swivels, thats about it ... and a snubber, once i find one...
On Sep 9, 2019, at 2:27 PM, Tom Augustyn via Groups.Io < taugy@...> wrote:
Any chance of adding diagrams/pictures?
-----Original Message-----
From: John Ulizzi < jaulizzi@...>
To: main < main@mtma.groups.io>
Sent: Mon, Sep 9, 2019 1:46 pm
Subject: Re: [MTMA] Kevlar shock cord
Great ideas !
Bob, you beat me to the punch in shock, and also degradation. Having thought about it since my original post, while I have yet to have a failure of the 100# with small rockets, some of which have been flown MANY times, I have had zippers, and I did intentionally ( although I had forgot) upgrade the bottom portion to the 250. It is easier to work with as well. The 100 is thin enough that if you are not careful you will cut yourself with it when you tighten the knot..
A few things I have learned:
1) I do something similar to Jeff’s mod of wrapping the kevlar around the engine hook, or in the case of screw on retainers, around the entire motor tube. I do this for strength more than anything else but Jeff I like your version that makes it replaceable. Mine has always been permanent.
2) Re: zippering, shock absorption, etc: Instead of a small piece of rc fuel tubing right at the end of the airframe, run a longer length of it with sufficient kevlar inside of it to allow it to stretch, making in in effect a snubber. This will prevent zippering and breakage due to shock. We sometimes use this exact item behind a dipsy diver when trolling for walleye for the same reason : to add some give in the system. Modern fishing line doesnt stretch like lines of yore, and if you build everything strong enough not to break, and there is no give, the fish “breaks”, and gets away. Counterproductive. Same thing when you blow the nose cone clean off and the swivel or the plastic retainer on the nose cone comes apart. As you can tell I am also a big fan of stealing technology from one hobby and applying it to another. If I remember I will steal one of these snubbers from my tackle box and throw it in my range box for the next launch I am able to come to...
3) I am a big fan of snap swivels because they reduce twist and also let you change things out in a hurry. But be careful in your selection. I learned very quickly that the swivels I stole from my freshwater tackle were not strong enough, even the high quality ones, not even for model rockets. I’m not yet playing with rockets big enough to justify raiding my saltwater tackle, but what you want are good, durable coastlock style swivels, in strength to match the kevlar. I have not found the extra expense of ball bearings to be worthwile. But strength and quality
yes. I have seen swivels I have used to land 20 lb plus fish blown apart by a D engine.
4) One other little trick... If you use a long length of kevlar in lieu of a shock cord, wrapping the kevlar in a figure 8 and then taping it together right at the intersection with one or two wraps of masking tape acts a very good shock dissipater as well...
Just my two, or, I guess my four cents worth...
Cheers,
John
Sounds like a modification of the "lariat loop" which works well.
On Mon, Sep 9, 2019 at 12:25 PM Jeff Kodysz < jeffk813@...> wrote:
I’ve tried a method of making the Kevlar shock cord replaceable on model rockets. The method works well but is a little difficult to explain in an email. Basically, You poke a through-hole in each of the centering rings large enough to pass a carpet needle through. Then take your Kevlar and tie a small loop in one end, put the loop around the motor hook and using the needle, pass the free end from the rear up through the holes and into the body tube.
You have to make the Kevlar long enough to reach from the very aftmost portion of the rocket all the way to its final desired length, but if it gets toasted and weak, you can easily pull it out and replace it.
Jeff
On Sep 9, 2019, at 12:16 PM, Tom Augustyn via Groups.Io < taugy@...> wrote:
Great info, thanks!
-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Ferrante < robert.1.ferrante@...>
To: main < main@mtma.groups.io>
Sent: Mon, Sep 9, 2019 11:43 am
Subject: Re: [MTMA] Kevlar shock cord
One thing that must be considered with Kevlar is degradation. 100 pound line may work the first three flights but if the shock cord is close to the ejection charge then each time it is being exposed to the ejection charge it does degrade. After a few flights your 100 pound line is now 75 pound line, and a few more 50 pound line or less. Also Kevlar will breakdown in UV light (sunlight). The strength is significantly reduced over time exposure to sunlight. I passed on a bunch of Kevlar at NARAM this year because it had changed color on the reel from the UV breaking down the Kevlar. Several layers in had changed color because the vendor kept the reels on the back of his trailer and where constantly exposed to sunlight.
Funny thing is I purchased 150 pound and 500 pound from Emmakites right after NARAM. I have had the web address in my favorites since NARAM-53. www.emmakites.com
Experience has told many of us that it is better to overbuild the shock cord.
100 pound is good for small competition models and sport models up to B or C.
250 pound is good for models up to E or F or egglofters.
Because Kevlar is so strong you may find it breaks parts on the model. So a short section of elastic line run in parallel with the Kevlar to absorb some shock before the Kevlar line pulls tight with reduce the shock to the parts of the rocket. This is great for egglofters and TARC teams to know.
Bob Ferrante
On Mon, Sep 9, 2019 at 11:14 AM Jeff Kodysz < jeffk813@...> wrote:
Yes, but Kevlar is excessively strong for its diameter. 100 pound test Kevlar is like carpet thread.
On Sep 9, 2019, at 11:10 AM, Tom Augustyn via Groups.Io < taugy@...> wrote:
Okay but what about the actual size of the kevlar cord? Wouldn't heavier pound ratings have more braids and be thicker?
-----Original Message-----
From: Jeff Kodysz < jeffk813@...>
To: main < main@mtma.groups.io>
Sent: Mon, Sep 9, 2019 9:06 am
Subject: Re: [MTMA] Kevlar shock cord
Think about it this way... if it's rated to #100, you could attach a 99 pound weight to the body tube and pick the rocket up by the nosecone with the weight attached. The rocket itself would fail long before the kevlar would break.
The only thing to worry about is zippering, but if you make the cord long enough that's not a problem. You could also secure as small piece of silicone model aircraft fuel tubing to the cord where it touches the open end of the body tube.
Jeff
On Mon, Sep 9, 2019 at 9:02 AM Tom Augustyn via Groups.Io <taugy= aol.com@groups.io> wrote:
For all body tube sizes?
-----Original Message-----
From: John Ulizzi < jaulizzi@...>
To: main < main@mtma.groups.io>
Sent: Mon, Sep 9, 2019 8:49 am
Subject: Re: [MTMA] Kevlar shock cord
Just my two cents but I have used the 100# on model rockets and never had a failure of the kevlar. I have had the swivels pulled apart, which to me is an even greater testament to the strength of the 100#...
They are both very good...
John
On Sep 8, 2019, at 10:20 PM, Tom Augustyn via Groups.Io < taugy@...> wrote:
Thanks Wolf! I was actually looking for a source for this exact product!
--
Jeff Kodysz
President
Mantua Township Missile Agency
NAR Section #606
--
|
|
|
Mike Nowak
An in person “how I do it” session would be best! Mike Nowak
On Sep 9, 2019, at 2:27 PM, Tom Augustyn via Groups.Io < taugy@...> wrote:
Any chance of adding diagrams/pictures?
-----Original Message-----
From: John Ulizzi < jaulizzi@...>
To: main < main@mtma.groups.io>
Sent: Mon, Sep 9, 2019 1:46 pm
Subject: Re: [MTMA] Kevlar shock cord
Great ideas !
Bob, you beat me to the punch in shock, and also degradation. Having thought about it since my original post, while I have yet to have a failure of the 100# with small rockets, some of which have been flown MANY times, I have had zippers, and I did intentionally ( although I had forgot) upgrade the bottom portion to the 250. It is easier to work with as well. The 100 is thin enough that if you are not careful you will cut yourself with it when you tighten the knot..
A few things I have learned:
1) I do something similar to Jeff’s mod of wrapping the kevlar around the engine hook, or in the case of screw on retainers, around the entire motor tube. I do this for strength more than anything else but Jeff I like your version that makes it replaceable. Mine has always been permanent.
2) Re: zippering, shock absorption, etc: Instead of a small piece of rc fuel tubing right at the end of the airframe, run a longer length of it with sufficient kevlar inside of it to allow it to stretch, making in in effect a snubber. This will prevent zippering and breakage due to shock. We sometimes use this exact item behind a dipsy diver when trolling for walleye for the same reason : to add some give in the system. Modern fishing line doesnt stretch like lines of yore, and if you build everything strong enough not to break, and there is no give, the fish “breaks”, and gets away. Counterproductive. Same thing when you blow the nose cone clean off and the swivel or the plastic retainer on the nose cone comes apart. As you can tell I am also a big fan of stealing technology from one hobby and applying it to another. If I remember I will steal one of these snubbers from my tackle box and throw it in my range box for the next launch I am able to come to...
3) I am a big fan of snap swivels because they reduce twist and also let you change things out in a hurry. But be careful in your selection. I learned very quickly that the swivels I stole from my freshwater tackle were not strong enough, even the high quality ones, not even for model rockets. I’m not yet playing with rockets big enough to justify raiding my saltwater tackle, but what you want are good, durable coastlock style swivels, in strength to match the kevlar. I have not found the extra expense of ball bearings to be worthwile. But strength and quality
yes. I have seen swivels I have used to land 20 lb plus fish blown apart by a D engine.
4) One other little trick... If you use a long length of kevlar in lieu of a shock cord, wrapping the kevlar in a figure 8 and then taping it together right at the intersection with one or two wraps of masking tape acts a very good shock dissipater as well...
Just my two, or, I guess my four cents worth...
Cheers,
John
Sounds like a modification of the "lariat loop" which works well.
On Mon, Sep 9, 2019 at 12:25 PM Jeff Kodysz < jeffk813@...> wrote:
I’ve tried a method of making the Kevlar shock cord replaceable on model rockets. The method works well but is a little difficult to explain in an email. Basically, You poke a through-hole in each of the centering rings large enough to pass a carpet needle through. Then take your Kevlar and tie a small loop in one end, put the loop around the motor hook and using the needle, pass the free end from the rear up through the holes and into the body tube.
You have to make the Kevlar long enough to reach from the very aftmost portion of the rocket all the way to its final desired length, but if it gets toasted and weak, you can easily pull it out and replace it.
Jeff
On Sep 9, 2019, at 12:16 PM, Tom Augustyn via Groups.Io < taugy@...> wrote:
Great info, thanks!
-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Ferrante < robert.1.ferrante@...>
To: main < main@mtma.groups.io>
Sent: Mon, Sep 9, 2019 11:43 am
Subject: Re: [MTMA] Kevlar shock cord
One thing that must be considered with Kevlar is degradation. 100 pound line may work the first three flights but if the shock cord is close to the ejection charge then each time it is being exposed to the ejection charge it does degrade. After a few flights your 100 pound line is now 75 pound line, and a few more 50 pound line or less. Also Kevlar will breakdown in UV light (sunlight). The strength is significantly reduced over time exposure to sunlight. I passed on a bunch of Kevlar at NARAM this year because it had changed color on the reel from the UV breaking down the Kevlar. Several layers in had changed color because the vendor kept the reels on the back of his trailer and where constantly exposed to sunlight.
Funny thing is I purchased 150 pound and 500 pound from Emmakites right after NARAM. I have had the web address in my favorites since NARAM-53. www.emmakites.com
Experience has told many of us that it is better to overbuild the shock cord.
100 pound is good for small competition models and sport models up to B or C.
250 pound is good for models up to E or F or egglofters.
Because Kevlar is so strong you may find it breaks parts on the model. So a short section of elastic line run in parallel with the Kevlar to absorb some shock before the Kevlar line pulls tight with reduce the shock to the parts of the rocket. This is great for egglofters and TARC teams to know.
Bob Ferrante
On Mon, Sep 9, 2019 at 11:14 AM Jeff Kodysz < jeffk813@...> wrote:
Yes, but Kevlar is excessively strong for its diameter. 100 pound test Kevlar is like carpet thread.
On Sep 9, 2019, at 11:10 AM, Tom Augustyn via Groups.Io < taugy@...> wrote:
Okay but what about the actual size of the kevlar cord? Wouldn't heavier pound ratings have more braids and be thicker?
-----Original Message-----
From: Jeff Kodysz < jeffk813@...>
To: main < main@mtma.groups.io>
Sent: Mon, Sep 9, 2019 9:06 am
Subject: Re: [MTMA] Kevlar shock cord
Think about it this way... if it's rated to #100, you could attach a 99 pound weight to the body tube and pick the rocket up by the nosecone with the weight attached. The rocket itself would fail long before the kevlar would break.
The only thing to worry about is zippering, but if you make the cord long enough that's not a problem. You could also secure as small piece of silicone model aircraft fuel tubing to the cord where it touches the open end of the body tube.
Jeff
On Mon, Sep 9, 2019 at 9:02 AM Tom Augustyn via Groups.Io <taugy= aol.com@groups.io> wrote:
For all body tube sizes?
-----Original Message-----
From: John Ulizzi < jaulizzi@...>
To: main < main@mtma.groups.io>
Sent: Mon, Sep 9, 2019 8:49 am
Subject: Re: [MTMA] Kevlar shock cord
Just my two cents but I have used the 100# on model rockets and never had a failure of the kevlar. I have had the swivels pulled apart, which to me is an even greater testament to the strength of the 100#...
They are both very good...
John
On Sep 8, 2019, at 10:20 PM, Tom Augustyn via Groups.Io < taugy@...> wrote:
Thanks Wolf! I was actually looking for a source for this exact product!
--
Jeff Kodysz
President
Mantua Township Missile Agency
NAR Section #606
--
|
|
|
Any chance of adding diagrams/pictures?
-----Original Message-----
From: John Ulizzi <jaulizzi@...>
To: main <main@mtma.groups.io>
Sent: Mon, Sep 9, 2019 1:46 pm
Subject: Re: [MTMA] Kevlar shock cord
Great ideas !
Bob, you beat me to the punch in shock, and also degradation. Having thought about it since my original post, while I have yet to have a failure of the 100# with small rockets, some of which have been flown MANY times, I have had zippers, and I did intentionally ( although I had forgot) upgrade the bottom portion to the 250. It is easier to work with as well. The 100 is thin enough that if you are not careful you will cut yourself with it when you tighten the knot..
A few things I have learned:
1) I do something similar to Jeff’s mod of wrapping the kevlar around the engine hook, or in the case of screw on retainers, around the entire motor tube. I do this for strength more than anything else but Jeff I like your version that makes it replaceable. Mine has always been permanent.
2) Re: zippering, shock absorption, etc: Instead of a small piece of rc fuel tubing right at the end of the airframe, run a longer length of it with sufficient kevlar inside of it to allow it to stretch, making in in effect a snubber. This will prevent zippering and breakage due to shock. We sometimes use this exact item behind a dipsy diver when trolling for walleye for the same reason : to add some give in the system. Modern fishing line doesnt stretch like lines of yore, and if you build everything strong enough not to break, and there is no give, the fish “breaks”, and gets away. Counterproductive. Same thing when you blow the nose cone clean off and the swivel or the plastic retainer on the nose cone comes apart. As you can tell I am also a big fan of stealing technology from one hobby and applying it to another. If I remember I will steal one of these snubbers from my tackle box and throw it in my range box for the next launch I am able to come to...
3) I am a big fan of snap swivels because they reduce twist and also let you change things out in a hurry. But be careful in your selection. I learned very quickly that the swivels I stole from my freshwater tackle were not strong enough, even the high quality ones, not even for model rockets. I’m not yet playing with rockets big enough to justify raiding my saltwater tackle, but what you want are good, durable coastlock style swivels, in strength to match the kevlar. I have not found the extra expense of ball bearings to be worthwile. But strength and quality
yes. I have seen swivels I have used to land 20 lb plus fish blown apart by a D engine.
4) One other little trick... If you use a long length of kevlar in lieu of a shock cord, wrapping the kevlar in a figure 8 and then taping it together right at the intersection with one or two wraps of masking tape acts a very good shock dissipater as well...
Just my two, or, I guess my four cents worth...
Cheers,
John
Sounds like a modification of the "lariat loop" which works well.
On Mon, Sep 9, 2019 at 12:25 PM Jeff Kodysz < jeffk813@...> wrote:
I’ve tried a method of making the Kevlar shock cord replaceable on model rockets. The method works well but is a little difficult to explain in an email. Basically, You poke a through-hole in each of the centering rings large enough to pass a carpet needle through. Then take your Kevlar and tie a small loop in one end, put the loop around the motor hook and using the needle, pass the free end from the rear up through the holes and into the body tube.
You have to make the Kevlar long enough to reach from the very aftmost portion of the rocket all the way to its final desired length, but if it gets toasted and weak, you can easily pull it out and replace it.
Jeff
On Sep 9, 2019, at 12:16 PM, Tom Augustyn via Groups.Io < taugy@...> wrote:
Great info, thanks!
-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Ferrante < robert.1.ferrante@...>
To: main < main@mtma.groups.io>
Sent: Mon, Sep 9, 2019 11:43 am
Subject: Re: [MTMA] Kevlar shock cord
One thing that must be considered with Kevlar is degradation. 100 pound line may work the first three flights but if the shock cord is close to the ejection charge then each time it is being exposed to the ejection charge it does degrade. After a few flights your 100 pound line is now 75 pound line, and a few more 50 pound line or less. Also Kevlar will breakdown in UV light (sunlight). The strength is significantly reduced over time exposure to sunlight. I passed on a bunch of Kevlar at NARAM this year because it had changed color on the reel from the UV breaking down the Kevlar. Several layers in had changed color because the vendor kept the reels on the back of his trailer and where constantly exposed to sunlight.
Funny thing is I purchased 150 pound and 500 pound from Emmakites right after NARAM. I have had the web address in my favorites since NARAM-53. www.emmakites.com
Experience has told many of us that it is better to overbuild the shock cord.
100 pound is good for small competition models and sport models up to B or C.
250 pound is good for models up to E or F or egglofters.
Because Kevlar is so strong you may find it breaks parts on the model. So a short section of elastic line run in parallel with the Kevlar to absorb some shock before the Kevlar line pulls tight with reduce the shock to the parts of the rocket. This is great for egglofters and TARC teams to know.
Bob Ferrante
On Mon, Sep 9, 2019 at 11:14 AM Jeff Kodysz < jeffk813@...> wrote:
Yes, but Kevlar is excessively strong for its diameter. 100 pound test Kevlar is like carpet thread.
On Sep 9, 2019, at 11:10 AM, Tom Augustyn via Groups.Io < taugy@...> wrote:
Okay but what about the actual size of the kevlar cord? Wouldn't heavier pound ratings have more braids and be thicker?
-----Original Message-----
From: Jeff Kodysz < jeffk813@...>
To: main < main@mtma.groups.io>
Sent: Mon, Sep 9, 2019 9:06 am
Subject: Re: [MTMA] Kevlar shock cord
Think about it this way... if it's rated to #100, you could attach a 99 pound weight to the body tube and pick the rocket up by the nosecone with the weight attached. The rocket itself would fail long before the kevlar would break.
The only thing to worry about is zippering, but if you make the cord long enough that's not a problem. You could also secure as small piece of silicone model aircraft fuel tubing to the cord where it touches the open end of the body tube.
Jeff
On Mon, Sep 9, 2019 at 9:02 AM Tom Augustyn via Groups.Io <taugy= aol.com@groups.io> wrote:
For all body tube sizes?
-----Original Message-----
From: John Ulizzi < jaulizzi@...>
To: main < main@mtma.groups.io>
Sent: Mon, Sep 9, 2019 8:49 am
Subject: Re: [MTMA] Kevlar shock cord
Just my two cents but I have used the 100# on model rockets and never had a failure of the kevlar. I have had the swivels pulled apart, which to me is an even greater testament to the strength of the 100#...
They are both very good...
John
On Sep 8, 2019, at 10:20 PM, Tom Augustyn via Groups.Io < taugy@...> wrote:
Thanks Wolf! I was actually looking for a source for this exact product!
--
Jeff Kodysz
President
Mantua Township Missile Agency
NAR Section #606
--
|
|
|
Great ideas !
Bob, you beat me to the punch in shock, and also degradation. Having thought about it since my original post, while I have yet to have a failure of the 100# with small rockets, some of which have been flown MANY times, I have had zippers, and I did intentionally ( although I had forgot) upgrade the bottom portion to the 250. It is easier to work with as well. The 100 is thin enough that if you are not careful you will cut yourself with it when you tighten the knot..
A few things I have learned:
1) I do something similar to Jeff’s mod of wrapping the kevlar around the engine hook, or in the case of screw on retainers, around the entire motor tube. I do this for strength more than anything else but Jeff I like your version that makes it replaceable. Mine has always been permanent.
2) Re: zippering, shock absorption, etc: Instead of a small piece of rc fuel tubing right at the end of the airframe, run a longer length of it with sufficient kevlar inside of it to allow it to stretch, making in in effect a snubber. This will prevent zippering and breakage due to shock. We sometimes use this exact item behind a dipsy diver when trolling for walleye for the same reason : to add some give in the system. Modern fishing line doesnt stretch like lines of yore, and if you build everything strong enough not to break, and there is no give, the fish “breaks”, and gets away. Counterproductive. Same thing when you blow the nose cone clean off and the swivel or the plastic retainer on the nose cone comes apart. As you can tell I am also a big fan of stealing technology from one hobby and applying it to another. If I remember I will steal one of these snubbers from my tackle box and throw it in my range box for the next launch I am able to come to...
3) I am a big fan of snap swivels because they reduce twist and also let you change things out in a hurry. But be careful in your selection. I learned very quickly that the swivels I stole from my freshwater tackle were not strong enough, even the high quality ones, not even for model rockets. I’m not yet playing with rockets big enough to justify raiding my saltwater tackle, but what you want are good, durable coastlock style swivels, in strength to match the kevlar. I have not found the extra expense of ball bearings to be worthwile. But strength and quality yes. I have seen swivels I have used to land 20 lb plus fish blown apart by a D engine.
4) One other little trick... If you use a long length of kevlar in lieu of a shock cord, wrapping the kevlar in a figure 8 and then taping it together right at the intersection with one or two wraps of masking tape acts a very good shock dissipater as well...
Just my two, or, I guess my four cents worth...
Cheers,
John
On Sep 9, 2019, at 12:41 PM, Mike Nowak < MikeMNowak@...> wrote: Sounds like a modification of the "lariat loop" which works well. On Mon, Sep 9, 2019 at 12:25 PM Jeff Kodysz < jeffk813@...> wrote: I’ve tried a method of making the Kevlar shock cord replaceable on model rockets. The method works well but is a little difficult to explain in an email. Basically, You poke a through-hole in each of the centering rings large enough to pass a carpet needle through. Then take your Kevlar and tie a small loop in one end, put the loop around the motor hook and using the needle, pass the free end from the rear up through the holes and into the body tube.
You have to make the Kevlar long enough to reach from the very aftmost portion of the rocket all the way to its final desired length, but if it gets toasted and weak, you can easily pull it out and replace it.
Jeff On Sep 9, 2019, at 12:16 PM, Tom Augustyn via Groups.Io < taugy@...> wrote:
Great info, thanks!
-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Ferrante < robert.1.ferrante@...>
To: main < main@mtma.groups.io>
Sent: Mon, Sep 9, 2019 11:43 am
Subject: Re: [MTMA] Kevlar shock cord
One thing that must be considered with Kevlar is degradation. 100 pound line may work the first three flights but if the shock cord is close to the ejection charge then each time it is being exposed to the ejection charge it does degrade. After a few flights your 100 pound line is now 75 pound line, and a few more 50 pound line or less. Also Kevlar will breakdown in UV light (sunlight). The strength is significantly reduced over time exposure to sunlight. I passed on a bunch of Kevlar at NARAM this year because it had changed color on the reel from the UV breaking down the Kevlar. Several layers in had changed color because the vendor kept the reels on the back of his trailer and where constantly exposed to sunlight.
Funny thing is I purchased 150 pound and 500 pound from Emmakites right after NARAM. I have had the web address in my favorites since NARAM-53. www.emmakites.com
Experience has told many of us that it is better to overbuild the shock cord.
100 pound is good for small competition models and sport models up to B or C.
250 pound is good for models up to E or F or egglofters.
Because Kevlar is so strong you may find it breaks parts on the model. So a short section of elastic line run in parallel with the Kevlar to absorb some shock before the Kevlar line pulls tight with reduce the shock to the parts of the rocket. This is great for egglofters and TARC teams to know.
Bob Ferrante
On Mon, Sep 9, 2019 at 11:14 AM Jeff Kodysz < jeffk813@...> wrote:
Yes, but Kevlar is excessively strong for its diameter. 100 pound test Kevlar is like carpet thread.
On Sep 9, 2019, at 11:10 AM, Tom Augustyn via Groups.Io < taugy@...> wrote:
Okay but what about the actual size of the kevlar cord? Wouldn't heavier pound ratings have more braids and be thicker?
-----Original Message-----
From: Jeff Kodysz < jeffk813@...>
To: main < main@mtma.groups.io>
Sent: Mon, Sep 9, 2019 9:06 am
Subject: Re: [MTMA] Kevlar shock cord
Think about it this way... if it's rated to #100, you could attach a 99 pound weight to the body tube and pick the rocket up by the nosecone with the weight attached. The rocket itself would fail long before the kevlar would break.
The only thing to worry about is zippering, but if you make the cord long enough that's not a problem. You could also secure as small piece of silicone model aircraft fuel tubing to the cord where it touches the open end of the body tube.
Jeff
On Mon, Sep 9, 2019 at 9:02 AM Tom Augustyn via Groups.Io <taugy= aol.com@groups.io> wrote:
For all body tube sizes?
-----Original Message-----
From: John Ulizzi < jaulizzi@...>
To: main < main@mtma.groups.io>
Sent: Mon, Sep 9, 2019 8:49 am
Subject: Re: [MTMA] Kevlar shock cord
Just my two cents but I have used the 100# on model rockets and never had a failure of the kevlar. I have had the swivels pulled apart, which to me is an even greater testament to the strength of the 100#...
They are both very good...
John
On Sep 8, 2019, at 10:20 PM, Tom Augustyn via Groups.Io < taugy@...> wrote:
Thanks Wolf! I was actually looking for a source for this exact product!
--
Jeff Kodysz
President
Mantua Township Missile Agency
NAR Section #606
--
|
|
|
